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Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan "We have to address our common heritage, the past, on a global scale and share science"

He was born on May 30, 1943 in Istanbul. He completed his secondary education at the English Boys' High School and then at Robert College in 1963 and started his higher education at Istanbul University, Faculty of Letters, Department of Prehistory. He started to work as an "honorary assistant" at Istanbul University in 1970 and spent his entire academic life at Istanbul University. Özdoğan became a professor in 1994, then became president of the Department of Prehistory in 2000, and he retired in 2010. Özdoğan is a member of the Turkish Academy of Sciences (TÜBA) (2002-2011), the Science Academy (2011), the United States Academy of Sciences (NAS) (2005), the American Archeology Institute (AIA), and the German Archaeological Institutes (DAI).

How to cite: Özdoğan, M. C. (2022). We have to address our common heritage, the past, on a global scale and share science (Hande Günözü, Interviewer). BRIQ Belt & Road Initiative Quarterly, 3(4), 6-14.

"We tried to bring a global perspective in terms of world prehistory, but it is quite difficult to explain it in Turkey. The area of constant focus remains Mesopotamia. Let alone Central Asia, the Balkans, Europe, even the Aegean is difficult to perceive. However, cultural history is global and requires a global point of view. You have to consider India and Pakistan to the south and the entire Indian Ocean environment. Besides, each region has interactions with its environment and processes with their own internal dynamics. Now, to bring all these together, you have to take a global perspective. To do any international work, not only for Central Asia but for the world, whether British prehistory or Tanzania, we need to understand that we need to look at the past on a global scale."

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan answered BRIQ Editorial Board member Dr. Hande Günözü's questions.

Which countries is the Shanghai Archeological Shanghai is a forum that offers a setting for developing

Forum* partnered with? Could you please tell us mutual relationships. Those who carried out significant

more about the formation and activities of the Shan- work at the time were invited there, where they introdu-

ghai Archeology Forum? ced themselves and shared their accomplishments. This is

a manner that shapes the Chinese Academy of Sciences’ Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: The Shanperspective on the future: What should the world do next? ghai Archeology Forum was established as an initiative What kind of decisions are to be taken? Will it be the corthat does not hinder other international collaboration rect approach, realistic, and serve its purpose? I consider mechanisms in this area, as is typical in the international this forum to be an enlightening platform. As a result of community. Understanding the situation in China is quite China’s lack of global integration, particularly in social challenging since it is a somewhat foreign place to us. Chisciences, we might argue that it is intended to prepare an nese people have unique ways of engaging with, sharing infrastructure. and adapting to the outside world. The Shanghai Forum

has been going on for four years, and I've been a part of it What exactly does the Shanghai Archeology

the whole time. According to what I understand, my colle- Forum do in light of what you mentioned earlier?

agues at the Chinese Academy of Sciences have established Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: There is no

a forum where scientists from other countries are invited specific research involved by the Shanghai Archeological Fo-

to integrate their experience with Chinese knowledge. This rum. It invites scientists from 40 to 45 nations (the last time,

provides a basis for Chinese scientists to understand what it was approximately 180) to China every two years to pre-

is happening in the rest of the world and to assume how sent their research. The Best Archeological Excavation, Best

international collaboration in this area might be possible. Research, and Best Finds of That Year are awarded by the Fo-

As we are used to organizing meetings with other rum. For roughly 10 days, they invite scientists from various

nations, you might sit down at a table with scientists and nations. This makes it possible for researchers from other na-

discuss a joint project while asking them questions such tions to interact, get to know one another, and improve their

as, “How do we do it?”, “With whom will we hold mee- relationships with their Chinese colleagues. Additionally, it

tings?” and “Who will publish works related to botany or can provide an atmosphere where our Chinese friends may

zoology?” That is not how the Shanghai Forum functions. observe the annual work done in 46 other nations.

*The Shanghai Archaeological Forum is an organization founded in 2013 within the People's Republic of China's Academy of Sciences, 7

which supports world-class research and strives to preserve and evaluate the world's archaeological heritage.

We may remark that the Forum has been organi- not to disrupt the system because of this, and I still con-

zed wisely. The Chinese Academy of Sciences president cur. Unfortunately, pandemic conditions prevented the

proposed, "Let's form an executive committee for the forum from taking place this year.

Shanghai Meeting," during the third forum. I was there I have been to China several times before for ot-

at the time with British colleague Lord Colin Renfrew. her meetings. I observe that our Chinese colleagues are

We both disagreed. developing a systematic approach to the world, asking

All of these worldwide organizations have so far questions like, "How do we set up something new? What

created boards of directors, and deserving colleagues does it take for a new formation? What’s the issue? What

have been elected to these boards. But hardly any of should it be?" They are seeking responses to their inqu-

them produced the intended outcome. The establish- iries. Therefore, their aim is for science to advance and

ment evolved personality disorders and envy due to find its rightful role in academia. I would see this as a

the administrative bureaucracy. The administrators we means of creating a framework for international collabo-

elected were bureaucrats who broke away from science ration that isn’t monopolized by a single nation. and traveled the world, and their attitudes changed away

from scientific research to pure theory and normativism. The Correct Method for Scientific

This was because these organizations frequently Collaboration

needed to travel to other parts of the world for meetings.

By severing ties with science, people who were elected What kind of scientific collaboration in the field of

to these organizations swapped roles and established ca- archeology can and ought to be developed within the

reers in the management of international organizations. model of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), whose

However, the Chinese Academy of Sciences’ impartiality main aim is “development by sharing,” which has been

and emphasis on the importance of the work method put into effect as a cooperation initiative between

have allowed the Shanghai Forum to continue without developing nations, from culture to science and

losing its quality since it was created. We urged people technology, to economic and commercial partnerships?

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Özdoğan gave the closing speech at the 4th Shanghai Archeology Forum. (Jiangxi Cultural Heritage and Archeology Institute, 2019Jiangxi Cultural Heritage and Archeology Institute (2019). The source article does not provide a separate full bibliographic entry for this citation.)

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: This question This approach has prevented science in those nations

does not have a simple answer. First and foremost, let from progressing in any way.

me state that everyone has a responsibility to history. Our advantage in Turkiye was that we were on

History is not the exclusive property of any nation; equal ground with our Western counterparts and

it belongs to all of us. Choosing and monopolizing a were not covered by the state’s shield. The Turkish

particular part means excluding others. Nevertheless, archeological system has maintained regional experts

for the groups to collaborate, they must have the on par with other Western nations until a decade

same knowledge, viewpoint, and level of scientific ago. Thus, it didn’t offer us an archaeological canopy.

expertise. That is where the problem starts. We had to participate in an open competition. This

improved archaeology as a science in Turkiye. As we struggled in open competition with them, we had Turkiye has a strong background in the chance to advance. archaeology, particularly in the social

sciences. Turkiye has a strong background in archaeology,

particularly in the social sciences. On that ground,

Therefore, the basis of collaboration must it is essentially the most advanced scientific level

achieve parity. If not, one side prevents the other to the nations with which it wishes to collaborate

and assumes hegemony, something none of us and work, as well as to those capable of learning

would want right now. It is possible to give various and putting it to use. Otherwise, finding simple

negative examples of this situation. For instance, partners will allow scientists to pursue various

the young states that emerged after the fall of the opportunities, but it’s important to avoid actions that

Soviet Union opened their doors to nations with the go against scientific ethics, such as doing nothing.

chance and experience of doing scientific research That’s why “stakeholder search” is outdated now.

with great hopes of integrating with the rest of the This was the method used by the West in the 18th

world. Despite not having such ulterior motives, and 19th centuries. With this method, a common

situations resembling the colonialist relations of the understanding of science with other countries did

19th century developed due to the teams’ inability to not develop. For this reason, when collaborative

accurately understand the internal policies of those work is to be done, a more difficult but correct way

countries, the bureaucracy that regulates scientific should be chosen. The attitude should not only be

research, and cultural accumulation. One of the like "come, let's work together," but "come, let's think

worst examples is when my international colleagues about science together and lay the foundation for

perform research while the locals view collaboration how science should be done."

as a chance to travel to another country in a favorable The Common Language Issue Will Be

situation rather than as an opportunity for scientific Solved Eventually

collaboration. What obstacles does the absence of linguistic cooperation If the relationship is fragile, a team of reveal to the development of scientific collaboration in knowledgeable scientists goes there, while others archaeology within the framework of the BRI? abuse their reputation, and it becomes scientific

blackmail. Simply put, the attitude that “I’ll give Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: It doesn’t seem

you the chance to work here, I don’t do anything, to matter much to me. China is the finest example of

but let my name be published, and I will make this. When I first contacted our Chinese colleagues,

academic progress as a result of that publishing.” none spoke English, but they all had translators. I also

didn’t see anyone more informed than Chinese people A Broad Perspective on Cultural History

who were familiar with international terminology and Language is not the only problem. Mesopotamia is the latest news. In the last several years, our Chinese the main focus of Turkish archeological education. colleagues have attended meetings in the West and Our educational system, except for late periods,

joined on several tours of our excavations. All of is Mesopotamian. The Balkans and Europe are

them were non-English speakers, but one had the disregarded in this approach and are treated as if they

impression that they were learning and understanding do not exist. We fought diligently at Istanbul University

the world very well. to change this. Although it is very difficult to do so

The situation is the same in Japan. Most of the in Turkiye, we tried to provide a broad outlook on

academics at many Japanese universities don’t speak prehistoric.

English but are well-informed about the outside world Mesopotamia continues to be the area of constant

and have excellent relations with it. The situation in focus. Even the Aegean, the Balkans, and Central Asia

Slavic nations is comparable, too. Thereby, even without attract little attention. But because history and heritage

language, once the fundamental understanding is are universal, it requires an international viewpoint.

correct, you can somehow solve the language, and I If you limit your examination to Central Asia, it

want to emphasize that when you target the younger won’t be appropriate. You should consider the past

generation, they can easily solve the language problem from all perspectives and approach the problem

and receive the message. The youth who want to open worldwide because every era has seen movements and

up to the world and share knowledge with it in good shares, and people are constantly moving. If you focus

faith should therefore be the target group. on just one area, you create a pseudoscience around

We typically obtain an education unrelated to the it. The Near East must be thoroughly understood to

Central Asian region while studying at our country's comprehend and know Central Asia, but South Asia

also requires careful consideration of India, Pakistan, universities. We studied the West and Anatolia, but Asian and the entire Indian Ocean region. cultural history and archeology are less well-known to The Chinese region is towards the East, and there us. China publishes papers in such areas in Chinese, but is a huge Eurasian steppe is to the North. Eurasia is some reporters speak English there. On the other hand, the region’s unified cultural identity that extends from most publications about Central Asia's archeology are Korea to Hungary. The discussion is mainly about the written in Russian. It is impossible to conduct thorough Turks, but it is a colorful union that contains all the research on those regions’ archeology without knowing nations. From east to west, this is correct for all of Russian. How do we get beyond such challenges? Central Asia. To comprehend that region, you should

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: That was my consider each and their neighboring cultural regions.

initial recommendation to the Turkish Cooperation Each region also interacts with its environment

and Coordination Agency (TIKA). It is not rocket and has processes with unique internal dynamics.

science. There is a long tradition of science in those It is necessary to adopt a global perspective to tie

regions where scientific research was first carried everything together. We must understand that it is

out before us. That is why I emphasized Kazakhstan essential to view the world and the past on a global

as an example. In Kazakhstan, 8,000 Kurgans were scale, whether it be British prehistory or Tanzania, not

unearthed up until 1993. If you total up all the just for Central Asia to interact in any international

excavations in Turkiye, it wouldn’t be much. work.

A Comprehensive Approach Necessary to of agriculture into animal husbandry, migrations

Understand a Civilization received and given, etc.

Since Central Asia is where we started this This method works not only for regions outside discussion, attempting to understand Central our own but also for Turkiye, which is a part of Asia from the viewpoint of the Near East without it. It is important to examine Crimea, Bulgaria, understanding this will result in a very contradictory and the Mediterranean to understand Turkiye, picture. The correct meaning must be used with this Syria and Iraq. Our educational system does not statement. In addition to the overall perspective, if include this. Without a worldwide, comprehensive we are doing anything for Central Asia, we should perspective, whether in terms of history, linguistics, mention that there has been a long process there, or archeology, we cannot comprehend the position including the paleolithic, prehistory, prehistoric of our nation or any other nation in the history periods, the Middle Ages, and the Modern Ages of of civilization. The phrase “holistic point of view” Central Asia, each of which is unique and is very needs to be properly understood. This necessitates similar to Central Asia. not only the creation of human-made structures For instance, we shouldn’t ignore the cultural and monuments but also the impact on the natural geographies of Ashabad and Kashgar because large environment, population patterns, population and diverse geography cannot be viewed as a single structure, knowledge, and climate changes that entity as if it had no differences. On the basis of affect living conditions. Central Asia as an example, we also need to stop viewing it as a region that has never been explored.

Science is collective and must be Since a long time ago, not only the Russians

collective. Science is impartial. and Chinese but also our Western colleagues have performed impressive work in that area, as In an environment with so much output value, the evidenced by recent efforts in the Altai. Scientific definition of specialization is constantly evolving. progress shouldn’t disregard previous research and When I was a student, scientists who studied on start from scratch. Bronze Age had to be knowledgeable about every

region, from Central Asia to England. The diversity Science Needs to be Shared

of knowledge and information has grown so much We must enter Central Asia as researchers and must

in the intervening period that the definition of an do so with the correct knowledge, effective strategy,

expert is currently confined to specific fields. and appropriate steps. Whether there are Chinese,

You cannot, for instance, claim to be an expert on Germans, Americans, or Russians working there,

both Uzbekistan and Syria. But it’s also important to they are scientists. Science is collective and must be

have a fundamental understanding of what’s going collective. Science is impartial. It was Atatürk who

on in various areas. Squeezing the past into one handled this correctly. Atatürk, who nationalized

plane, or removing the time scale, is a serious flaw in everything, asserted that “science should be

our educational system. That region’s neolithic and international” in the early years of the Republican

paleolithic periods are distinct from one another, party. He opened up science to the world and

as are the region’s Bronze Age formation, state and welcomed visitors to Turkish excavations. “Archeology

city establishment, agricultural origins, conversion has to become universal,” he declared.

China only recently began exploring beyond its Many essential items, including rice and chicken

borders, but it did so in a very balanced manner. China from East and Southeast Asia, likely traveled to the west

made the right decisions and moved forward. We can safely by sea rather than land during the Bronze Age, which

say that, generally speaking, my Chinese colleagues have began in the third millennium BC. The domestication

very different attitudes than people in Western nations. of horses, camels, and donkeys, on the other hand, led

to the importance of the two highways connecting the What are the opportunities for partnerships and east and west, the road passing through the Eurasian cooperation between the governments, research steppes in the north of the Black Sea and the road organizations, and universities of Russia, China, coming from the south of the Caspian via Central Asia. Turkiye, and Central Asian countries, and how can they However, the geography between these two regions was be developed in the field of revealing and preserving frequently altered depending on the political structures. the history of civilization on the Silk Road? Archeological evidence shows that the Eurasian steppes

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: Which route served as an expressway or highway for the horse riding

through the north of the Caspian Sea, which one from the communities during prehistoric times and that different

south of the Caspian Sea, or which one from the Indian cultures, societies, and even taste preferences impacted

Ocean do we refer to when we say “Silk Road”? Or are we life in the two areas.

referring to alternative, distinct routes or the main road On the two sides of Asia, there are two distinct cultural

that is constantly changing? formation regions. We must remember the passage of

Let’s explore the Silk Road. We are asking a question time when we start to question the connection between

that requires an answer. I believe this issue can be referred China and the Near East. The picture that emerges when

to as the significance of the Silk Road concerning East you ignore civilization’s 5.000-year history and condense

and West Asian relations. Many things travel east and it into one dimension will be wholly false and reflect

originate in the east. However, the Indian Ocean is one your preferences rather than reality. You must choose the

of the main routes here. Therefore, what we refer to as the relevant period for your search because the relationship

Dilmun trade is a very important trade route that enters between the two areas is dynamic and constantly changing.

the Persian Gulf from Southern China. It has existed since The “Silk Road” can be viewed as a representation of

3.000 BC and occasionally spreads to Africa. It should not this set of relationships in this context. Although everyone

be forgotten that the sea route was more convenient and has heard of the phrase “Silk Road”, it still needs to be

secure in ancient times than the land route. thoroughly established to transfer to science.

Original figures from different cultures that have reached to the present day. (CSSN, 2019CSSN (2019). The source article does not provide a separate full bibliographic entry for this citation.)

The World Neolithic Congress will be Although we observed a class-based society there, we used

Pioneering to say that class society and stratified society emerged in

Could you please explain to us the origins of the World 3000 BC. The temples were from a later period, but we saw

Neolithic Congress and its contributions to the field of a temple there.

archeology, which will take place in 2023? We decided to organize a congress to bring together

various Neolithic Periods worldwide due to the excitement Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: One of the this caused. The “Great Neolithic,” which includes the most significant turning points in the development Chinese, Southern Siberian, American, and African of civilization was the Neolithic Period. Hunting and Neolithic periods, as well as the Near Eastern Zagros and gathering were the primary modes of subsistence for a Anatolian periods, must all be seen on the same table with very long time before this process began. However, the the Neolithic periods of Anatolia and the Near East. Neolithic represents the breaking point of the system that In China, the Neolithic had been moving westward; in makes up modern civilization. In other words, the system the United States, it had been moving eastward, and both that converts production, farming, surplus product, and have points where they converge. As a result of the blending surplus value into a city, state, and empire. The Neolithic of the two, new cultural regions, like Eurasian, are emerging. is responsible for inheritance law, family law, the division

of labor, masteries, cities, states, empires, armies, soldiers, There will be a congress where these topics can be discussed,

war, temples, clergy, and bureaucracy. It is a process that though not all issues will be resolved immediately.

lays the groundwork for modern civilization. In the Near Obviously, the focus here is on the East Asian model and

East, in our Anatolia, there is one of the breaking points. our Near Eastern Neolithic model. There are models from

However, this procedure is not limited to Anatolia. There China and Japan. The part that excites me—and this is the

was a Neolithic culture in China, one that developed in interesting part—is that the Neolithic in China or Japan

Southern Siberia and one in Central America. South began for entirely different reasons than it did in the West.

America has a Neolithic period; we owe them the corn, Agriculture began there much later. For instance, they

potatoes, and tomatoes we have today. begin with tree seedlings. Most of it is fruit seedlings

rather than grains. Settlement is replacing fishing. Twenty thousand years prior to our time, they began using pottery.

How was the present connected to But BC. The system is the same all over the world in the year

the past? We should internalize the 3000. What is emerging? State, empire, military, religious

intellectual depth this point of view institution, writing, and warfare. All Neolithic people provides us. reach the same conclusion about themselves, as if by divine

The Neolithic cultures of each region have been providence. Thus, a system’s return is an intriguing process.

extensively studied from various angles, including When you pull the trigger, the state and its laws—including

nutrition and genetic inheritance. However, compiling this those governing inheritance and family law—come into

information and comparing them all on a table has not been play. In this manner, Anatolia, China, Japan, and America

done yet. Recent years have seen a change in the findings of all reach the same conclusion.

new excavations in the Upper Euphrates and Upper Tigris This congress’s goal is to put them on a table. We

basin, also known as the Göbeklitepe Cultural Region in would be hosting this congress in China this year if there

Southeast Anatolia. When we used to say, for instance, were no pandemic. Prior to that, we also met with the

“Agriculture began first, then settled life,” the opposite was Novo Sibirsk Academy. Also very interested were their

actually the truth. Before agriculture, there was a settled life. Russian colleagues, but the circumstances were not right

4th Shanghai Archeology Forum award ceremony. (Jiangxi Cultural Heritage and Archeology Institute, 2019Jiangxi Cultural Heritage and Archeology Institute (2019). The source article does not provide a separate full bibliographic entry for this citation.)

then. The Chinese Academy of Sciences was extremely what should have happened or not. I can explain everything

welcoming in 2019. We moved here because the most that happened in the past.” Thus, we should interpret it as

recent events in Turkiye gave us the chance to do this there. reading today’s glasses helps us understand the past, but

Additionally, Chinese coworkers are actively involved in it. Childe emphasizes that these glasses also keep us from

seeing everything else. How was the present connected This is a crucial stage in developing the fundamental to the past? We should internalize the intellectual depth infrastructure. this point of view provides us. This, however, does not

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: I really hope foresee what the future will hold. The future will be shaped

so. Of course, everyone must come here once the differently depending on its initial circumstances; it cannot

pandemic conditions have passed in 2023. This be a repeat of the past. The Marxist analysis makes you

sizeable convention wouldn’t take place online. Several think something “has to be like this,” but it doesn’t. You

hundred papers were presented at the “Congress of can consider it from a capitalist perspective and conclude

Near East European Neolithic” in Copenhagen this that it simply isn’t true again. Because there are so many

year, but it was still online mainly out of expediency. parameters and a wide variety of dynamics in the world,

you must consider them all.

Who Will Assess All These If We Go Back to Do you, for instance, know when and where the next

Primitive Life Again? volcanic eruption will occur? When three volcanoes

What can we learn from history to create a new civilization erupt, the climate of the entire world changes. We cannot

centered on people and in harmony with the natural world? project forward when we start from that point and bring

together many different factors, but can we learn from this

Prof. Dr. Mehmet Celal Özdoğan: I don’t think experience? I think there is something to be learned from

humanity has learned anything from its mistakes in the this. Set everything aside, then come back to the tree. Let’s not

past; otherwise, we wouldn’t be in this predicament today. disturb the earth. Who will respond, “that was wonderful”,

Let me sum up by saying that I believe one of the key if we climb the tree again and leave the planet alone? Who

lessons on this topic is found in the note Gordon Childe will remark, “It was okay?” So in order to critique, someone

left before his passing, which examines cultural history must know the subject. The world was beautiful, it was nasty,

from an angle that will provide a holistic perspective. it was good, and we need a foundation that can affirm that.

Childe wrote, “I suffer from not being able to explain What good is sitting on a tree if you don’t say that?